Help with a Proper Punishment

I don't think the punishment is the problem, she knows she is wrong. She needs to learn an alternative to hitting when she is frustrated. Have a pillow to hit instead, or close her eyes and count to ten or anything that will let her blow some steam without getting violent.

She's 5? This sounds like a lot of different types of discipline were "tried" which sounds like none were committed to on a serious and consistent level. And with so many various things happening-especially extended non-punitive ones like time-outs, time alone in room, toy removal, she's getting a lot of attention for this. How much control over her do her parents have in general? Is she allowed to get away with other wrong behaviors with similar varying consequences? The book Back to Basics Discipline is great for this age. I used spanking for hitting so the kids knew they would NEVER be allowed to hit and only tried it once each-but they were about 2 at that time, not 5. The book will have an age appropriate perspective on how to make her enforce her own right behavior.

This is what I did for hitting (I am a former preschool teacher, so if this all seems a little 'coachy', bear with me)

First, I listen to *both* children and take evidence into account. For example, if Sonia's face has a red mark and Todd says he 'didn't do it' and Sonia said he did, I'm going to assume Sonia's telling the truth.

I help the person who was hurt to express themselves. "I don't want you to hit me. It was okay for me to go away, I was done playing Barbies. When you hit me, I don't want to play with you." or whatever they need to say.

(I have the child who hit/hurt, go with me to get an ice pack/bandage/first aid for the hurt child. I would do this sooner if there was blood or urgent need for first aid, of course.)

I do try to talk the children through making amends/apologizing, however, I never force an apology. IF the child who hit is sorry, and obviously contrite, I may let them resume playing. But this needs to be a genuine apology, otherwise, then the child who hit may be told to go sit alone or take a break, usually out of the way of the action going on. In my preschool, I had a 'cozy corner' ( a quiet place for kids to sit out of sight of the other kids and pull themselves together) ; outside, the person who was hurting/hitting had to sit on a step alone.

Last, I check in with the child after I see that they have cooled off. If they haven't apologized, I do ask if they would like to 'try to fix things with your friend' and if yes, they can go back to where they were playing. If no, then I would direct them to a different activity.

In your friend's situation, I do wonder if some of the hitting isn't an attention-getting behavior. In the situations where there is repeated hitting going on from one child, I would have them stay with me throughout their time at preschool or in my care. This actually proves to be very useful for many children. "I see that you are not being safe with your friends, so I need you to be with me now." And then, boy, do I get boring. This is NOT a time to play with the child. They must keep themselves entertained with whatever is at hand, but they may not go out of my sight. "I'm not here to have a cheery conversation with you. You are here because you weren't being safe with your friends. I have work to do now." Wash dishes while the child works/plays at the table. Fold laundry. No special attention, but they are getting the drift that they don't have any liberty. To most kids, this is far more instructive than just sending them to their rooms.

When the child has spent enough time for the parent to feel ready to release them (they are calm, body relaxed, etc.), then we make a plan for the future. Sample script:

Parent: "What happened so that you needed to be with me?" (I never ask 'why', as it is often hard for kids to articulate that one)

Child: "I hit Suzy."

Parent: "Right. What was the problem you were having with Suzy."
Child: "She stopped playing Barbies and I wanted her to keep playing."
Parent: "And that didn't work for you or Suzy. So, the next time a friend is done playing, what can you do?"
Child: "I can keep playing my thing. Or I can do something else."

Parent: "That sounds good. The next time your friend is finished playing, you can keep on with what you like, or you can find something else to do."

It's important to also insert a little empathy into the situation when it's not a time of conflict. Your friend can talk about "sometimes, it's really hard when I want to do something and no one wants to join me. Do you ever feel like that?" This opens up a safe way to talk about negative feelings without validating the misbehavior in the moment. The more children feel that we understand *where* they are coming from, the more likely they are to comply with our requests for them to regulate themselves, because they feel we are an ally who has their best interests at heart. "I don't want you to get into trouble for hitting again, I know you don't like sitting out. I'm trying to help you figure out what would feel better for you when your friend walks away from what you are playing." The book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...And How To Listen So Kids Will Talk" by Faber and Mazlish is also an extremely useful book for parent/child communication (actually, it's excellent for most interpersonal communications). I highly recommend both you and your friend giving that a read.

Ultimately, it's not necessarily about 'what kind of punishment' but really "how do I help my kid buy into changing a behavior so she knows it's to her benefit?"

well, first, tell them to stop spanking her for hitting. That is redundant and actually REINFORCES her confusion about WHAT to do..... ie- I don't like what YOU are doing so I am going to use physcial punishment, but YOU can't use physical punishment for your friend, because it's wrong. It sends a mixed signal.

I suggest your friend start focusing on DISCIPLINE not punishment to TEACH her daughter HOW to behave.

So- 5 is a little old for hitting, I agree. First of all, her mother is going to have to teach her WHAT to do when she is unhappy. This is why we tell 3 year olds "use your words". That is what you need to do with her. You need to validate what she is feeling and then let her know what is acceptable.

"I see that you are angry that barbie's are over. We don't hit when we are angry. If we hit, we don't get to play with others at all."

You can also set an amount of time that an activity will happen - say, you can play barbies for 20 minutes. Then it's time to do what Janie wants to do for 20 minutes. Set a time, let them know about transitioning "I see you are having fun playing barbies - time is up in 5 minutes and you can play barbies tomorrow". Then if she throws a fit - no barbies tomorrow. That would be a consequence, not a punishment. see the difference?

Additionally, I would probably look for someone else for my kids to play with..... who wants to be hit all the time?

Good luck

get her the book 123 magic. it will work wonders. she needs to clearly have set house rules.
ex:
no hitting
running is for outside
no yelling in the house
stay out of other peoples personal space

then set up a plan for what the consequences will be
ex:
Mary hitting is not allowed thats #1
Mary hitting is not allowed thats #2 if I have to say #3 you will have a time out.
if it continues again then.... you loose your tv time today (or whatever is the consequence. be firm and be consistant. don't get angry and don't shout. just very matter of fact. but the key to to be consistent each and every time.

Hmm.
It's typically a toddler problem but not unheard of in preschoolers.
She's really really short on impulse control.
She feels something and acts on it without stopping to think about anything.

Sure she should have a time out - every time it happens - WHEN it happens.
(Punishment a long time after the fact does not connect the crime to the punishment - she doesn't get why she's being punished.)
It's a chance to cool down and think.
(Is she tired when the hitting happens? Some kids need naps longer than others. Our son napped (at least on weekends when school was in session) till he was about 7 yrs old.)
Then she'll eventually learn that hitting will result in her fun stopping.
She might respond well to some one on one adult time.
With a little brother around, she might not be getting enough attention.
The current punishments I don't think are helping her with learning any coping skills.
If someone can talk to her (repeatedly) about feelings and anger and what to do about it, it would be more constructive.
Everyone gets angry sometimes but how would she feel if someone hit her just because they got angry?
Count to 10, if she has to hit something maybe a pillow (at home at least) might be something that would be ok (it won't hurt her or damage anything else).
If all else fails and she's still having problems, maybe her Mom should talk about this with her pediatrician.
It might be some sort of developmental delay that she needs some help with.

I personally haven't had an issue with my 4 year old daughter hitting anyone, but for other things she does wrong, I give her timeouts. I started by giving her timeouts in her room with no tv, but that wasnt working because she usually found something to play with when I wasn't looking. So someone suggested doing timeouts in the bathroom. I don't close the door or anything like that, and it's a small bathroom, so she can't really run around or play with anything. Since doing timeouts there, she acts alot better or only gets one warning, and then stops whatever bad thing she is doing, because she doesn't like her timeouts anymore. Timeouts usually last from 3-5 minutes. Then we talk about why she got put in there, and make sure she understands it was wrong, and I don't appreciate her doing it. And if she does it again, then she'll get a timeout again!

Good luck to your friend!

"I am posting for my friend" was pretty clear to me that your friend asked you to write here for ideas. Pretty good idea. You can copy and paste the helpful comments and send them to her.

Nervy Girl's response is excellent. It's WORK to deal with this. She will need to really make this plan and stick to it. I agree with Amy J that perhaps she is trying too many different discipline actions without consistently using the same things each time. That can cause all kind of issues, including a kid pushing buttons just to see what you will do next.

I would NOT go as far as saying your friend needs parenting classes. Parenting classes are not all the same and she'd have different people telling her different things and she'd be in the same boat all over again, trying a bunch of different stuff that doesn't work.

And as Cheryl B points out, she should ALWAYS grab her daughter's hand and swiftly and sternly tell her that she does NOT raise her hand to her mother. If she doesn't do this, the next thing this kid might try is raising a hand to her teacher.

I love, love, love Nervy Girl's advice. I think making the child stays with you and is a bit bored while there is a great idea. Just the incentive the child will need when next time thinking about clobbering someone. IMHO, much more effective and natural consequence.

As for raising her hand to her mother, that is a matter of respect. The very next time, and EVERY time thereafter, when that hand comes up, mom grabs it. Then she gets down to the child's level, looks her VERY STERNLY in the eyes and in her most stern voice says "You do NOT raise your hand to me. That will not be tolerated." Keep the stare going and make sure the child understands the seriousness of the situation. Then send the child to time out.

Good luck to your friend.

BTW, did you actually ask this SAHM to watch your kids? Based on the responses from SAHM's to questions about being asked to babysit, I'd say you have a lot of moxy mama! Apparently they don't like being asked.

Nervy Girl is right on. This girl needs someone TEACHING her how to behave. Parenting and raising well behaved, respectful kids is a process, not something you can "fix" with a spanking or taking away of toys.
Maybe your friend would benefit from some parenting or child development classes, especially if she's taking on other children in addition to her own. I know I wouldn't want a caregiver who didn't know how to deal with something as relatively common or routine at this age as hitting/pushing.

I love, love, love what Nervy Girl suggested!! An approach like that will go a loooonnggg way farther than "punishing" the child who clearly is having trouble controlling her impulses.

PS I think it goes without saying that spanking a child for hitting makes no sense whatsoever...

Having no TV has nothing to do with her hitting. If she used the TV to hit the person that would be different.

Just as hitting with a Barbie SHOULD get that Barbie taken away right then.

The consequences must associate with what they did wrong.

I would stick this child in a time out chair and she'd be in for a very long time because each and every time she got up or whined time would start over. Of course I wouldn't make it for hours but I would use it to teach the child that calming down was the better option.

is this child delayed in language? or have other delays? this is so typical for two yr olds. Is it possible she is witnessing hitting in her home? If they are spanking her frequently they are making things worse. Your friend should read up on how to deal with 3 yr old hitting, including teaching her to use words to express frustration -it's OK to say I'm so mad you dont want to play Barbies anymore! Reading books about how to play nicely with friends (How do Dinosaurs and other titles) It should be more about prevention and "rehabilitation" then punishment. Of course she should go to time out but that's only part of it.

So you're asking for a friend? Did she ask you for help? BC it sounds a lot like she's your babysitter and you want to tell her how to parent.

I read a majority of the answers (not all). But, the one thing that seems to be missing here is that you should also reward good behavior with praise. When she plays nicely, you should compliment her and say how much you enjoy being near her when she plays nicely. I think that goes a long way to towards reinforcing the behavior that you want.

have the Mom watch the "1-2-3 Magic" video.

This has been my stock answer for years now.....& it still works.

Seriously.

I think she should post her own question, because I always think it's kind of a waste of time to answer questions about third parties.

But here's my opinion: spanking is not an appropriate punishment for hitting. Does your friend see the hypocrisy of that?? "DON'T HIT!" (whack) Um, that makes sense.

Time outs, take toys and privileges away, whatever it is, she needs CONSISTENT consequences. It's always the same thing. But she shouldn't hit her child for hitting others. That makes ZERO sense.

My 5 year old went through this phase. She would only do it with her sister though. At school she never hit anyone. And she has never raised a hand towards me. But if her sister drove her to the point of frustration, usually by provoking her or making her mad she would hit her sister. Her sister would then retaliate. At first I didn't try to make a big deal of it but eventually I realized the problem was just continuing and getting worse.

For me I initially warned whomever resorted to hitting would be put in a time out for 10 minutes. I also told them their are better ways to resorting your problems then hitting. I also told them that people get in arguments but hitting is not the way to resolve them. I told them they could not continue their relationship by resolving a fight with hitting each other. And said do you see people around you doing that? Anyway, it was a nice normal chat I try to have with them outside of when they are actually in that mode of hitting.

However, of course this did not necessarily stop my youngest from getting to the point of hitting. It then took a couple of 10 minute time outs. She isn't perfect now, but I've noticed it's definitely not as often anymore.

Not sure this will help but just letting you know what I did.